I have a question for the Internet. How would you define nagging? And is nagging always unjustified?
Nagging is a behavior that I try really hard to avoid. It’s also a behavior I find really hard to avoid. My mother, though I love her dearly, is a champion nagger. If you don’t do things the way she thinks they should be done, you *will* hear about it. At length. And my dad isn’t much better. He has the ability to be annoyed by anything that’s happening within 40 feet of him, and when I was a kid I’d often be minding my own business (sometimes unaware that he was even in the room) when suddenly he’d bark out that I was wasting my time by re-reading my favorite book or that my posture was awful and I should sit up straighter.*
Because both of my parents are naggers, and because I’ve inherited more than a smidge of their control-freak tendencies, I worry that I’m going to continue their cycle of nagging. And I really, really don’t want to do that to my husband or my future children because I know how it feels to be on the receiving end of constant “pointers” about what I’m doing wrong.
And yet … if you don’t want to nag, how do you deal with it when someone in your life hasn’t done something that needs to be done?
I was prompted to think about the nagging issue recently when I read this Tomato Nation column. The letter writer was asking for advice on how to improve her relationship with her boyfriend, whose severe procrastination was leading to perpetually dirty dishes and missed bills. She wrote that she hated asking him over and over again to do something because that felt like nagging.
My reaction to that was, “Huh, well, asking him to do something multiple times is probably nagging. But … what else are you supposed to do if he habitually agrees to do something and then doesn’t do it?” Looking back, although my brother and I resented my mom’s nagging, we would have escaped a *lot* of it if we simply did our chores when we promised to do them, instead of waiting until she reminded us a second, third, or fourth time. I can’t help feeling that, in the case of the procrastinating boyfriend, the naggee shares some of the blame for the nagging — why can’t a grown adult pay bills on time and do his share of the housework without multiple reminders from his girlfriend?
I know this sounds like I’m asking for permission to nag people (my TAs, my husband, my future children) and I’m not, I swear. I truly and sincerely do not want to nag my co-workers and loved ones. But it seems like there might be two different types of nagging: “you’re doing things the wrong way” nagging and “you didn’t do what you promised” nagging. The former should be avoided, especially if the “right way” is merely a difference of opinion. The latter seems more complicated. Being reminded to do something twelve times is admittedly annoying, but if those twelve reminders are following twelve missed deadlines, whose fault is that?**
So, wise people of the Internet, is there a way to remind your partner that s/he promised to do the dishes or pay the cable bill, without it being “nagging”? And if it is nagging, is it always the nagger’s fault?
Also, I want to note in closing that Econo Man does the dishes when he promised, has the bills on autopay, and is generally a super-reliable partner. Any nagging that takes place in our relationship is almost certainly about me being a control freak, and only very occasionally about him forgetting to do something ;-)
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* This is not meant to be an “oh, woe is me, my tragic childhood” post. All parents have their flaws, and nagging happened to be theirs. If I successfully avoid nagging, I’m sure I will come up with new and exciting neuroses to project onto our children. Also, my mom has mellowed considerably in the past ten or so years.
** If those twelve reminders all happen before the deadline, that’s different.
This is a conversation that G and I have often had. (I.E. the point I make that I don’t enjoy asking him to do something twelve times, and that that wouldn’t happen if he, uh, did it.) We usually resolve to both try to be better–for me to evaluate each situation in which I want to pseudo-nag him and decide whether I really need to say it, and for him to try and be on top of stuff more so he needs fewer reminders. We are getting to a better balance. Personally I find that being conscious about it allows me to learn to let go of the smaller stuff so that I do ask LESS, and so that there is generally good faith in our relationship that when I do open my mouth, it’s justified. Does that make sense?
Also, I should add that I hate this conversation because it is so fucking gendered and it drives me nuts as a feminist and I want to find a way to correct this balance more generally.
A., I try to do the same thing — pause and think to myself, “do I really need to say this?” I think I’ve gotten better about it over the years of living with my sweetie, and the truth is, when it comes to Econo Man most of the time I *don’t* need to say it. He’s pretty on top of stuff. It’s just hard for me, as a control freak, to let him handle stuff on his own schedule instead of pestering him to do it in the very moment I’m thinking about it!
And agreed on the way the conversation about nagging is gendered — as a feminist, it *is* annoying to feel like you’re in that situation where the woman is 100% responsible for running the house and the man can’t be expected to pitch in unless he’s reminded.
100% agree that “nagging wives” are very frequently simply smart women being ignored by jerks who then saddle them with the offensive and dehumanizing label of “nagging wives.”
I posted a link down below for something I wrote about nagging, and you’ll notice I call it shrewing. I actually think “bitching” would have been more appropriate to the story, since it’s about a guy whose wife is always shrewing at him, and he eventually comes to realize that it’s because he isn’t listening, not because she was ever a shrew.
But anyway, I had a long conversation with myself about the term “nagging” which seemed like it it the story best but I don’t like the term for the exact reason that you just said – it’s almost derogatory toward women, it’s so commonly used that way.
Of course, shrewing isn’t much better, but I’ve got a jerk in my story – had to call it something..
I like nagging, some says.
Great post! Nagging is the verbal equivalent of “The definition of insanity is doing the same useless thing over and over and expecting it to work.” Ask once, of course. Twice, OK. After that, it’s time for a talk at a time when people are relaxed and happy, like “OK, I have to tell you that the garbage/dirty dishes/whatever thing isn’t working for me. I love that you said you’d do it, and I suspect you aren’t a fan of me nagging, so how can we actually make that happen?” That said, if you continue to nag about everything, then that’s your issue and you should get help. Yikes, I sound like some advice column person.
I think that’s a pretty good distinction you just drew, about promise-nagging versus opinion-nagging. I also think it’s all about tone.
When I’m on my third or fourth lap telling my wife or kids something which they’ve just not internalized – the dog pooped in the den again, and I just can’t stress enough how important it is to take this dog you swore you’d take care of outside on a regular basis, etc, etc, etc – I like to kind of point out how tiresome this must be getting.
“I can imagine you’re getting pretty sick of hearing about the dog, but on the other hand, I’ve got dog poop in between my toes again, and I’m pretty tired of that, too. What do you think we can do to relieve the frustration for both of us? Oh, I know. Start taking the dog out more, etc.”
Kind of pointing out, the only reason I’m still banging this drum is you keep acting like you can’t hear it.
Also, I wrote this about the concept:
I agree with A that this is a gendered issue, because yes, if the person (usually, though not always, a man if we’re talking a hetero relationship) doesn’t do whatever he’s %$#@! said he will, oh hell yeah it’s partly his fault. And not doing something you know you’re supposed to do is just passive aggressive at some point, although it’s also true that getting into a nagging dynamic just makes the nagee more resistant.
But it’s also true that women are socialized to be more “aware” of dirty dishes etc. then men are; that men are socialized not to be “as good at” chores as women are, all that depressing stuff — so it makes sense to nag selectively, and not about every little thing. To find your inner foul bachelor, shrug, and say “screw the dishes” for at least a little while.
Basically, I’d say the solution is to find a partner who just does what they says they’ll do most of the time, and bug them about only the important stuff. Harder than it sounds, though, and if you can’t find someone reliable I’m gonna say it’s better to live alone.
WorstProfEver, I think your solution is exactly right. Find someone reliable, bug them about the important stuff, and learn to let the rest of it go.
I have this issue a lot too. My boyfriend never ever does what he says he is going to do. I am so sick of reminding him to do the same thing multiple times. I don’t want to feel obnoxious…it even annoys myself when I nag him so I have decided not to anymore…and guess what? I am now annoyed because nothing gets done! He still has not sent in that application I told him to send in a month ago. He still has not fixed the dishwasher, he still has not made those important phone calls he has been meaning to.
We don’t live together so it isn’t my problem but it does make you look at that person as immature and irresponsible.
These are now my thoughts:
I am not your mother! Why can’t you do anything for yourself without me forcing you to? Why do you need someone to tell you what to do? Grow up!
Nagging or no nagging…either way is stressful.
adayinthelifeofdes.blogger.com
Ok, I actually have something near the opposite. My hubby is darn near OCD. He’s an anal perfectionist and I’m well…not. While I like things nicely clean, etc, I don’t overanalize every chore.
My advice:
Choose your battles: if its really not that big of a deal do it yourself, that way when you do ask for something that IS imporntant, you’ll have more of a possiblilty of being heard. People, whether men or women, tend to block out the naggers.
In addition to the above, evaluate what you consider a “big deal”. There’s more to life than getting your way.
Also, you will get less done by criticizing how something is done if the other is making an attempt.
If something does require comment, its all in your tone & how you choose to get your point across in how successful your opinion will be.
Christy, those are all great suggestions. I definitely had to evaluate what I consider a “big deal” after moving in with my husband. For example, I hate crumbs on the counter, and my husband doesn’t really care about them. Rather than say something about the crumbs almost every morning, I learned it was much easier to just take ten seconds, clean up the crumbs myself, and call it a day.
I used to have a boyfriend like the one mentioned in the post (one who put things off indefinitely, although he managed to pay his bills). I found that part of our problem was that we didn’t have understood deadlines for things. I would ask him to do something, he would say okay and then just sit there. In my head I meant right now or in the next ten minutes. He thought I meant eventually.
Also, his particular personality did not respond well to reminders. If I would remind him to do something his stubbornness would kick in and he would purposely resist doing the thing. It was better to just leave it until he got to it or do it myself.
And, in the end it was better to break up with him.
Crystal
http://www.crystalspins.com
i had that nagging problem with my (recently) ex boyfriend. the guy would not do anything around the house – he would say he would but then not do it, even if i did nag him. or it wouldn’t occur to him that maybe he should do the dishes that had been sitting in the sink for a week instead of me and i didn’t want to nag him about it so they just sat and festered. this totally is a feminst issue, that a lot of guys just don’t think about household things in the same way that women do. in my case, i solved the problem by breaking up with him. yay! looking onward for men who know how to hold up their end of a partnership.
CrystalSpins, good for you — I don’t think I could be with someone who made me feel like I either had to do everything myself or be OK with nothing ever getting done. That’s not a partnership, that’s a mommy-kid relationship.
Julia, I promise those men are out there! And about nagging and feminism: I think that a lot of men and women still subconsciously think of housework as “the woman’s job,” and that sometimes (not always, but sometimes) women get called “nags” simply for having the gall to ask their male partners to pitch in. “Stop nagging me about the dishes” can be code for “I don’t have to do dishes because I’m the man, how dare you even ask.” No matter how smart and progressive we are, it can be hard to break free of those assumptions.
Concerning house-work, and similar: This is to at least some part a matter of the woman having a different schedule and different priorities than the man—not necessarily that he would unwilling to do the needed work. On average, women prioritize e.g. the visual impression of a home higher than men do; they often do the wash-up when there is something to wash, while the men went until they need to wash; etc. Naturally, men are not keen on being told to this-or-that when there is no actually need to and very little benefit from doing so. Nagging in this situation will do more harm than good—try to see the other side of the issue instead.
(Note: I speak of group characteristics, the details of any individual case can be very different.)
I grew up with a nagging mother as well. Don’t we all? A lot of it is due to our own perception. If we could simply be honest and say, “look, the dishes are never going to get done because I don’t like to do them.” Then, perhaps add, “I’ll be glad to pick up the slack in other areas.” This would help to eliminate unrealistic expectations and hopefully nagging.
I think most people define “nagging” as…. when you don’t really want to hear what that person has to say. No matter what it is.
I’m not sure if that’s the true meaning – but it’s all perception.
My husband and I had the same issues at the beginning of our marriage. At first I nagged like crazy, but then I just decided to stop and take control.
I took all the bills and payed them myself, if there is something I want to be done, I do it myself. In the case of household chores or fixes, I ask my husband once or twice. If it doesn’t get done I hire someone to do it or I leave it.
What happened? Well after he had to pay for a plumber to come out and clear the sink (something he could have done) instead of having a fun weekend, he decided to take my requests for fixing more seriously. After I stopped cooking until the dishes would get done (when it was his turn) he started taking chores more seriously.
Now after 5 years, we spilt the bill responsibility. When I ask him to do something, I make sure I give him a reasonably amount of time to get the task done- and he makes sure he completes it. I also make sure I am not asking for things I can’t just do myself.
The part that I have a problem with is sarcasm in nagging. I think that it makes the situation much worse, and I hate it every time that I catch myself doing it.
I finally told people “I know I’m sarcastic and mean when I nag, I know that I keep annoying you to do ________, but my delivery does not undermine the importance of the task.” I really like lifeintheboomerlane ‘s solution to this, and I’m going to make an active effort to try that. It just sounds so nice, and its affirming, and really like the person that I strive to become.
OMG! I love this post! Nagging… Suggestions… You all have such a wonderful take on this.
My method is to *B*M*C* (Bitch, Moan and Complain). Frankly, after 31-years of marriage, I’m ready to walk out. I know, I know… it’s all about being a quart low on estrogen, but for Gawd’s Sake people, there’s a time to sow, a time to reap and a time to get get out of Dodge.
In the end, if I only have myself to rely upon what’s the point of staying and being miserable and/or making him miserable?
I’m sure we are all aware that marriage is NOT a 50/50 arrangement. It’s 100/100 pact. Sometimes it’s 125/75 or even 175/25 deal. That type of understanding can only last for so long, due to the unbalanced nature. In a strong wind, even a tree will topple if it is heavier on one side than another.
Thats my mom.. sit a little more straighter- will you..
How dare you not wake up sharp at 5, just why, tell me, why are yo quiet? That won’t help. Speak up..? How many days do you want me to call you up? You are in your teens now.. You better be getting a little more disciplined..
Aaaah, at 32, going to be 33, 2 days later.. I have championed my late mom’s act. Ask my domestic maid. While I may not be overbearing (or so I think..), I definitely know how to pull one up or rather keep them pulled up always..
Yes, I am a Control Freak..
Congratulations
In the situation with the dirty dishes, I don’t think that’s nagging at all, if there was a deadline. My mother nags all the time, because she simply asks for stuff to be done. Well if I am in the middle of doing something, I will get to it when I’m done. Or I might put it off, but it will get done in a reasonable time. The most important thing to remember is to give a deadline. Say “Hey honey, can you get the dishes cleaned by five?” And then, if they aren’t done by then, any reminder there after is not nagging. Its important to remember that everyone has their own time line and it’s not going to be the same as our own. Hope this helps!
I like your post, especially that you’re reflecting about your parents behavior and the risk of getting the same yourself; I have that all the time, but you know what, I stopped believing I will take after all that from my parents. the key, in my opinion, is awareness. Haha heritage, you can’t fool me, because I KNOW you want to be in me, but I will not allow you. or something like that. in any case, keep nagging if you feel it’s justified :) everyone does it anyway, so why not? :P
I deal with the nagging dilemma often. Sometimes I feel like I might get sick of my own voice. But sometimes things just don’t get done. Multiple times. Again and again….you get it. I find that the old saying: “If you want things done right, do it yourself,” comes in handy. You just have to find the line of what needs to be nagged about and what you can do yourself. I am still a work in progress. Great post.
Mommy Needs a Pinot, I think my mom eventually subscribed to the “do it yourself” philosophy too. But, when my brother and I moved out, we both realized that we were really used to living in a clean, orderly house, and that took work. One night, after getting really mad that my roommates had left a giant mess in the kitchen *again,* I called my mom to thank her for always picking up after us!
I have been thinking about this too. :)
Mother Hen here. She would like to add the term “hen-pecked” to the negative terms applied to chicks who are just trying to get their roosters to man up and do their part. Mother H. hates that expression (for obvious reasons)!
Guys fail to do their part because it works for them! Mother believes the technical term is “passive-aggressive behavior.”
Another version of the male procrastination “MANeuver” is screwing up chores so their females will decide doing it themselves is less trouble. What amazing tactitions these supposedly clueless doofusses are!
Ladies, listen to Ms. Tara and go on the offensive!
Hire handypersons to take care of the honey-do list, and see how fast those lazy slugs find some ambition!
Make it as much trouble to them as it is to us! The housecats tell me that Farmer Brown’s wife once made her hubby’s clothes disappear whenever they were left on the floor. I cackled myself silly when I heard that one! I was waiting for him to show up completely featherless — but was disappointed when instead he got his act together. (We girls have to get our fun in where we can.)
Get creative!
Leave post-it notes everywhere he hangs out, to “help him remember.”
Have the bill collectors call him at work
Go on strike and let him know why. (Mother Hen once refused to lay eggs until the coop was spruced up.).
Let there be consequences!
Are we being sexist when we complain about males failure to cooperate? Mother Hen maintains that an unfair division of labor is what is sexist!
Guess what happens to a rooster who doesn’t crow in the morning? Bye-bye Mr. Rooster!
Out Burning Her Bra, or Father Roosters Boxers,
Mother Hen
http://.motherhensnest.wordpress.com
I thinking “nagging” is defined by how it is perceived. The “nagger” may think they are just reminding or maybe passing along solid advice. But the one at the receiving end may just see it as annoying and uncalled for. And though most of try to be aware of this unwelcomed trait, sometimes we just need to keep reminding people to put their dirty socks in the hamper. Just because it’s been six years does not mean I’m OK with picking them up for you. [See how that worked. :)]
I learnt to let go of certain things, thereby only reminding about crucial things. I’ve also learnt to sort my own damn self out, and if someone else is left with unredirected mail, or paying an extortionate amount for flights they had to book at the very last minute (for example, ahem), then they soon learn, in my experience.
But a lot of it for us has been about communication. There’s often a reason behind a thing undone, or some underlying anxiety that I’ve not picked up on, and I’ve learnt to notice when that’s happening and ask about what’s up, instead of just checking up on what’s not done.
Of course, that’s how it is for us. He’s pretty good at doing stuff, just sometimes has a different timetable for going them to me. And I’m no angel either, as I have my own areas where I have huge hang-ups and avoidance/procrastination problems. But yeah, picking one’s battles helps a LOT.
agirlwrites, that’s another great question to ask before saying something: “Is this really something that’s going to negatively affect *me*? Or am I just stressed because I think it’s going to negatively affect *them*?”
My family has to think about that a lot with my brother, who often does things at the last minute. It drives us crazy to watch him put off buying an airline ticket or registering for classes, but nagging him to do it doesn’t help break the pattern. Having him not get the seminar he wants, or have to pay double for his ticket, on the other hand …
Sometimes the person who has been asked to do something is being passive aggressive. The thinking is that if I avoid doing what I’m being asked to do long enough, the other person will get fed up and do it themselves and I won’t have to! So sometimes it’s that.
And sometimes, people just need a deadline. No nagging allowed until the deadline has passed, but then feel free to nag away.
I guess we just have to be conscious of what we’re saying so that we don’t come off as nags.
Great post!
Nagging is in many ways a method to force someone to do something he does not want to do by inflicting some type of harm (annoyance, discomfort, or similar). As such, it is ethically dubious. Furthermore, it is likely to do more harm than good in most cases: People do not like being told what to do, and will often accumulate resent, go back on what they promised just to silence the nagging, be “passive aggressive”, or otherwise react negatively.
Simply put: Do not nag. If reasoning is not enough then go about it like an adult and put up a simple cause-and-consequence. (For instance, “If you do not do X for me, I will not do Y for you.” or, in the extreme, “If things do not change, we will have to walk our separate ways.”—after all, we mostly have to take people as they are, and cannot re-mold them into what we think that they should be.)
Importantly, be open to the possibility that you are the one who is wrong or unreasonable: In my own experience, the “naggees” are usually a smaller problem than the naggers, who often react out of a lack of perspective and understanding for others POV, resort to nagging because they lack convincing arguments, or have learned that they can earn short-term benefits from nagging.
The first thing my Mom ever does when she comes home is nag about something. The dishes not being put away, the clothes not being put into the drawer. I think that nagging is permissible in some instances, but I think that it generally made us naturalize the idea that my mother was a negative person. Which wasn’t necessarily true.
I feel you on the inherited nagging fear. I feel like “natural naggers” will always find something wrong or incomplete – if they can’t find something big, they’ll find something small…point is, they’ll find SOMETHING.
I don’t know if there is any way that you can escape it, other than getting your kids in check. But that will come at the expense of them FEARING you and I don’t think that’s healthy either.
As I am not a parent…yet, I don’t know of a feasible solution!!! Much easier said than done when you want things a certain way and they aren’t.
Here is how it will go with my child: she will get a chore/task, and a complete by date. She will get ONE reminder. Then, if she doesn’t do what she agreed to do by the deadline, she will get a punishment.
As for my husband, I wish I knew. Men TURN us into nags. My husband agreed to put Frontline on the pets to kill the fleas (I don’t want to handle insecticide because I’m nursing). He agreed to do this in June. Of 2009. At this point, it’s beyond nagging. It’s simmering resentment. I blame his mother. Nothing comes out of her mouth that isn’t nagging and I think he just set his switch to “off” 3 decades ago.
Agreed. Asking someone to do something the first time and then again if they said they would do it and didn’t is not nagging. But “correcting” someone’s behavior uninvited or offering repeated unsolicited advice totally is. Your instincts are correct!
Nagging vs. Bitching:
Wind up the cord to the vacuum when you are done with it.
I don’t the the cord wound up like that.
Nagging: Trying to get someone to do something that does not fall high on their priority list.
Bitching: Being critical of the way the thing you wanted done was completed.
I don’t mind a bit of nagging – painful though it is. I can sometimes be the spur to getting things done – writing things.
When my friends nag me to write, it’s something else to put on one side of the scales, on the get-on-with-writing side – and that helps. Because on the other side of the scales are work, family, and a horde of other things to be getting on with.
I never nag people..
yet, people nag me about random things all the time.
And when I say people, I mean my friends and family.
I guess nagging to me means: giving hell.
It’s just a source of complain.
The issue lies in expectations. You expect a person to be a certain way, and, when they are not, you start a verbal assualt in order to coral them into the place you have prepared for them.
So, if someone doesn’t do something they agreed to do: so what? If it needs to be done and isn’t getting done, then do it. Yes, yes, everybody is now screaming “but then I would be doing everything!” Yes, you would. So why keep that person around? What is it about them that you can’t do without? There may be many, many wonderful and good qualites about that person that you want in your life. Well, there’s the trade off. You want them there, and they are not doing what you expect. So, either change the expectation or let the person leave your life.
In the end, relationships are about compromise and communication. Make sure your expectations are known. No one can live up to the bar if they don’t know where it is set. If you have to ask again and again, your communication isn’t effective. In professional life, you don’t get asked again and again…if you don’t do your job as out lined, you are fired. Not so much in personal relationships and there is the rub. You have to change the expectations in personal relationships.
I don’t think nagging is ever a good thing. It wears down the naggee, frustrates the nagger, and nobody is happy in the end.
I think that if you try to make sure that what you’re asking is reasonable, and don’t let that tone come into your voice that says, “You can’t be trusted to do this on your own,” then it’s not really nagging. My wife repeatedly asks me to do things; some of it is nagging, a lot of it isn’t. I take both in stride and we do fine. Great post.
Yep done my fair share of making my better half “remind” me of what I have agreed to do. Thanks for the laugh
Although the dictionary definition does not mention the sexes, if it’s coming from a female the comments are unfortunately most likely considered “nagging.” And your mention about nagging = acting like my mom, you hit it right on! Some men are reminded of how their mothers were with them. In fact, I’ve had my significant other tell me at times to stop acting like his mother ;-( I’ll look forward to reading more responses to your thought-provoking question!
And congrats on getting onto Freshly Pressed! LB
Fun post. Valid points, too. I am a closet nagger. I nag in my head but rarely say a word, which does wonders for my levels of frustration. I’ve found that the things that truly need to be done are done eventually.
i can certainly relate to this thing
repeating requests is frustrating
hmm how about catching
the person do a good thing
and be outright with praising?
maybe it will inspire him to act the soonest
after all receiving a praise is the sweetest
so give that praise now
dear i said give it now
hello can you hear me
what is wrong with you sweetie
i said now as in N-O-W
well, i don’t know what to do with you
i guess i’ll just congratulate you
your nagging made it to freshly pressed
be happy now, don’t be stressed :)
Mother Hen here yet again!
She finds it revealing that the persons coming to the defense of the “nagees” are almost all gentlemen!
Please note, most revered sirs, that the commenters have been very careful to note that the nagee in question has agreed to perform said task.
If he finds the task to be unnecessary, one would hope that as an adult he would have the…ahem…guts to come right out and say so in the first place. Mother Hen realizes that a conflict might ensue, but wouldn’t that be the more honest and mature way to respond?
If the individual instead chooses to indicate an intention to comply with the request, can one truly blame the requester for expecting that the task be completed?
RE: The Issue of Sexism
Mother H. would like to know why the term “nagging,” like the term “bitching,” is almost exclusively applied to the female members of a species? Is it because this behavior is purely estrogen driven? She thinks not.
If a guy friend asks a guy friend to help him, and receives an answer in the affirmative, would he then be amiss to remind his buddy more than once? Or would he simply flip him off (difficult for roosters) and then write him off?
If your male boss reminds you several time that a report is due, is he nagging, or merely repeating a perfectly reasonable request?
Not to get in a flap about the matter, but inquiring chickens want to know!
Inquisitively yours,
Mother Hen
http://motherhensnest.wordpress.com
I live alone so I end up nagging myself — pretty hilarious when you come right down to it that I am conversing with myself about the shit I don’t handle…that I promised I would.
Nagging is simply a form of communication — if you perceive it as negative then it is; if not it is simply sharing you view about what needs doing. You can be more “socialized” as a female to “see” dirty dishes but who “sees” the cockroaches or fruit flies that bring all that nasty disease. Does this mean that men are never responsile for this crap? What about when they live alone…I don’t buy this argument.
Free yrself of the nag-angst — reminders are necessary, and others, the ones you live with esp., need to be respectful of your space, your needs and your desires…as you try to be of theirs…
I’m just sayin’
@jedwardswright
That defenders of nagees are mostly men is quite natural: Most nagees are men, most nagers are women.
As for avoiding tasks, any individual situation will differ; however, many of these arise from situations where the original consent was made only to stop nagging in the first place (or to avoid some other annoyance). Others are merely temporary postponments. Ducking a discussion in these cases is not (necessarily) a sign of lacking maturity but of conflict avoidance. In contrast, nagging is a destructive and immature tactic—a more mature person would use arguments and point to consequences (as I discuss earlier).
Sexism, in turn, has little or nothing to do with the issue: As stated, most naggers actually are women. Further, men usually use other methods than nagging when they see a task neglected. Further, yet nagging typically includes a tone of voice and accusatory angle that men are less likely to use.
@Vendela
Nagging may be a form of communication, but it is a destructive form lacking in respect and consideration—and respect and consideration for others, as you point out, goes both ways.
Most men living alone, by the way, get by excellently without doing the amount of house work women wish—and they do so without having more cockroaches than anyone else. (In addition, I am far from certain that cockroaches, let alone fruit-flies, bring diseases in a modern household.)
Finally, I find it interesting that you presuppose that the strong female drive for cleaning would be a matter of socialisation. Whether this is nature or nurture is irrelevant for this particular discussion (and I have no ready-made opinion); however, the presupposition (which as pre-supposition is scientifically unwarranted) is usually a red flag.
On the “drive for cleanliness” issue, I think you are missing the mark a bit. It is less about cleanliness and more about being considerate.
I live with a roommate. When she is not present, I am less likely to wash the dishes right away, or wipe the bathroom sink, etc – because it’s just for my use. When she is in the apartment, I make more of an effort to wash my dishes once I’ve used them, wipe the sink if I’ve made a mess of it, etc because if she took the time to do that for me, then it’s only fair to do that for her, no? My room may be in shambles, but where there is common living space, we keep it clean (read considerate).
Or think of it this way: sure, I can let the other person do the dishes whenever they “get around to it” – but if there is only one spatula in the kitchen, would it be fair that my partner always get it clean from the drawer, and I always get it dirty from the sink?
It’s about being considerate of the person you are living with.
I disagree: In my experience so far (including what I have seen between others), different priorities are the main issue. Your example is simply not a typical case—if it were, the naggees would have a lot more understanding for the naggers.
(This discounting the separate issue of those who nag for secondary reasons, e.g. to release tension from other contexts, and enjoyment from nagging it self, or similar.)
Dear Mr. Erikson,
Having taken a gander at your blog, Mother Hen has observed that you are a considerable fan of the factual, scientific approach, which is just ducky.
Therefore, she assumes that you have some sort of data to back up your statement ” Most nagees are men, most nagers are women [sic]” because otherwise it might be viewed as, perish the thought, a presupposition, which, as you have properly noted, would be “scientifically unwarranted.”
Please refer to the following website for notes on passive-aggressive traits in men, paying particular attention to the notations on:
Obstructionism
Fostering Chaos
Feeling Victimized
Making Excuses and Lying
Chronic Lateness and Forgetfulness
Ambiguity
http://passiveaggressive.homestead.com/patraits.html
Mother Hen would suggest, based on these traits, that “conflict avoidence” and answering dishonestly are not mature coping strategies, but symptoms of a disorder categorized in the DSM IV (1994) as Passive Aggressive Personality Disorder.
A further description of this condition can be found at:
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000943.htm
Rationally yours,
Mother Hen
http://motherhensnest.wordpress.com
Not everything which is not scientifically supported is a presupposition: For instance, I have never seen a scientific study claiming that women wear high-heels more often than men—yet, I feel perfectly confident in making this claim (at least as far the typical “Western” country is concerned), and I doubt that anyone would seriously dispute this.
It is true that the evidence I have seen concerning nagging (including own experiences on, usually, the receiving end; what I have seen in other couples or between parents and children; and what I have heard from others on their experiences) is not as conclusive as with the high-heels. Possibly, US men and women are different from Swedish and German; possibly, I have been exposed to an unlikely series of flawed samples; possibly, yet another reason makes the conclusion faulty.
However, “on the balance of evidence” and applying Occam’s Razor, the conclusion that women nag more than men is the only one I can draw—and the conclusion becomes more clear-cut when factoring in aspects like e.g. tone of voice. (In both cases, with the reservation that we speak of adults: Children of either sex can be horrible naggers.)
Should your personal experiences differ, then we have to agree to disagree until someone does make an investigation; if you can provide such an investigation, I will be quite willing to revisit the issue—as I assume that you will be, should I stumble upon such an investigation.
As for your link and discussion about passive-aggressiveness, you miss the point: I have in the main made two claims (that women are greater naggers, and that nagging is immature and destructive)—none of which are contradicted by your link (on a cursory inspection). Notably, I have not made e.g. the statement “women are immature and passive-aggressive; men are mature and constructive”.
Looking at the issue of “conflict avoidance” (and related) that too is not disproved: Each individual case is different, intents and exact methods will differ, and both legitimate use and passive-aggressiveness can co-exist (in particular, note that there is often a difference of degree between the healthy/legimate and the unhealthy/illegitimate—just as between a friendly reminder and nagging). Further, it should be noted that “passive-aggressive”, as a medical concept, is highly controversial—with many considering it a valid coping tactic or too arbitrary (my own use is usually in the “everyday” sense). Further yet, a psychiatric diagnosis must be made on a balance of multiple criteria: If we were to say that “X displays symptom A and B; ergo, he has condition Y.” then we would have to declare more-or-less everyone to be suffering from a clinical condition. Finally, you would be mistaken if you interpret the link to imply that passive-aggressiveness is something that is predominantly male—the underlying source is geared to deal with specifically the case of men (by analogy, a similar page on black criminals must not be taken to imply a connection between skin color and tendency to commit crime).
“Further, it should be noted that “passive-aggressive”, as a medical concept, is highly controversial—with many considering it a valid coping tactic or too arbitrary.”
michaeleriksson, can you provide backup for this claim? Who, specifically, considers the NIH definition of passive-aggressive behavior “too arbitrary”? Is this your own opinion, or a controversy within the medical/psychiatric community?
michaeleriksson’s main point, I think, was the label “passive-aggressive” is thrown too lightly, like “crazy.” Try to tell someone who’s actually crazy that s/he’s crazy and see the sadness.
As to his assertion that the medical condition is controversial, I am not a specialist but this is what I found:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive%E2%80%93aggressive_behavior
Diagnostic criteria
Passive-aggressive personality disorder was listed as an Axis II personality disorder in the DSM-III-R, but was moved in the DSM-IV to Appendix B (“Criteria Sets and Axes Provided for Further Study”)[2] because of controversy and the need for further research on how to also categorize the behaviors in a future edition.[3][4] As an alternative, the diagnosis Personality disorder not otherwise specified may be used instead.
The Construct Validity of Passive-Aggressive Personality Disorder
________________________________________
Author(s): Christopher J. Hopwood, PhD1; | Leslie C. Morey, PhD2; | John C. Markowitz, MD3; | Anthony Pinto, PhD4; | Andrew E. Skodol, MD5; | John G. Gunderson, MD6; | Mary C. Zanarini, EdD6; | M. Tracie Shea, PhD7; | Shirley Yen, PhD7; | Thomas H. McGlashan, MD8; | Emily B. Ansell, PhD8; | Carlos M. Grilo, PhD8; | Charles A. Sanislow, PhD8
doi: 10.1521/psyc.2009.72.3.256
Passive-aggressive personality disorder: the demise of a syndrome.
Wetzler S, Morey LC.
Department of Psychiatry, Montefiore Medical Center/Albert Einstein College of Medicine, Bronx, NY 10467, USA.
Abstract
This article presents an explanation and critique of the rationale for dropping passive-aggressive personality disorder (PAPD) from DSM-IV. The clinical and research literature on PAPD is reviewed along with the historical changes in definition, diagnostic criteria, and usage. PAPD can be reliably diagnosed, is fairly prevalent, and has good internal consistency. Because PAPD is no less valid than other personality disorders, and describes clinical phenomena that are unique among personality disorders, we recommend the reinstatement of PAPD in the official diagnostic nomenclature.
A quick google (“passive aggressive validity”) gives e.g. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1530103 , which seems to be match based on the abstract.
Note that there are many personality disorders that are controversial or disputed, and that inclusion in a set of guidelines is no protection against this—the guidelines are changed in various ways in irregular intervals.
michaeleriksson – the link you posted is for a rather old article (1992). Mine a fresher – but one thing is certain: there is obviously some controversy about this disorder.
At any rate, calling people passive-aggressive and crazy implies bias against mental disorders. At the same time, if a friend of ours has been diagnosed as having a mental disorder, would we shun him or her and joke about it? I wouldn’t.
Thank you for your references. I missed your comment the first time around, else I would have let the issue be.
I actually think a good way to stop the nagging is to agree to do things together. If he isn’t that keen to do the dishes, tell him you’ll give him a hand. Personally, I hate cleaning while my other half is chilling out on the couch – so I encourage him to give me a hand to clean, then we can spend time together or do our own thing afterwards. We haven’t moved in together yet – so I am hoping the “helping each other” approach will work in practice. I just think that when it comes to chores, it shouldn’t be treated like it’s either his job to do it or mine – it should be about being in it together and supporting each other. So, if he’s mowing the lawn, I’m not going to stay inside and paint my toe nails – I’m going to get out there with him and potter in the garden – instead of making him feel like he’s doing all the hard work.
Hmm, nagging. Not a good thing. Reminding once, okay. That’s it.
See, I was brought up the “Tough Love” way.
For ex. growing up, if our Toys and stuff were on the floor, we were told to pick them up. We would say, “OK.” A while later, we’d get a reminder. We’d say, “OK.” Much later, we’d go by were our stuff used to be…It was cleaned up! Not to be touched or used by us for a couple of weeks. As we got older, the time frame got longer or the things would be Gone.
Now, for the BF that doesn’t pay bills and the such, if they’re in his name. Let them go. If they’re in her name, Change it! OR, let her take responsibility. Kind of get where I’m going?
I believe Nagging only persists because the person being Nagged has no Repercussions to worry about. Once they realize that there is a consequence, they may only need one reminder ;)
I agree with “From the Pews”. There are certain things I will do because do not like even worrying about reminding him to pay the bills. But other things? You don’t put your clothes in the hamper? Then you aren’t going to get your underwear washed.
Or worst, I try the guilt route. I ask once to do the dishes and twice. The third time I sigh with the patience of a saint and get up and do it myself. Usually, they go ahead and get up and do it.
Jesselyn, I totally take the “OK, I’ll just do it” route too! If it’s his turn to do the post-dinner cleanup and the dishes remain undone right before bedtime, I’ll start them myself, and nine times out of ten, my husband will say, “oh, I was going to do that!” and take over. So much more effective than saying, “HONEY, you PROMISED to do the dishes before bed tonight.”
He’s annoyed when I nag and nags about it. Ditto about me. We used to have spectacular nagging sessions, until we discovered a way to reduce them dramatically.
For us, the best way to deal with nagging, or whatever it is that annoys you, it is take your pillow and comforter and go sleep in the other room. By morning, you forget what what happened.
I haven’t been in a relationship before, but I can’t imagine ever staying in a relationship where your partner isn’t being a partner at all. As one poster alluded to, that’s a parent-child relationship.
It is also interesting that there is an obvious rift – or difference of opinion – between those who are feminist and those who are not feminist. To me “nagging” (and I definitely don’t agree with the idea that women “nag” while men don’t, ’cause that’s absurd) is a product of a dysfunctional relationship. If you don’t enjoy reminding someone over and over and over and over again to do something, why are you with that person? And if you don’t like being told over and over and over and over again what to do, then why are you with that person?
Whether you are the “nagger” or “nagee”, both point to a certain immaturity in that you are not communicating your stance or argument. Why is getting the dishes done by 10pm so important to you? Or – Why is getting the dishes done by 10pm such a problem for you? Repeating yourself like a parrot on crack, or repeatedly promising to do something you have no intention of doing – both are wrong.
Others have pointed to the fact that you should pick your battles, and I agree. Socks on the floor? Fine, I’ll pick them up if it bothers me more than the other person. Continually not paying the bills on time? To me that’s serious and warrants a discussion where either my partner pulls their weight or else he or she is no longer my partner.
How do you love (or live with) someone you can’t rely on or trust? I couldn’t do that.
I do think it is a very gendered issue, but putting the blame on the other isn’t exactly helpful. Both contribute to the situation.
tomboyinhighheels — Great comment! I especially liked this phrase: “Repeating yourself like a parrot on crack, or repeatedly promising to do something you have no intention of doing – both are wrong.” I completely agree that nagging is usually a situation that both parties contribute to — it’s almost never the case that one person is just a bossy neat freak with unreasonable standards, or that the second person is just an insensitive irresponsible slob who never pitches in. Both people probably have points, and in a strong partnership, you should both try to see each other’s point of view and figure out a way you can both be comfortable in your house.
I am a total control freak who didn’t marry until I was 44. My husband is also a control freak. I have had to learn to let things go, otherwise I would be griping all day long. I have also learned to ignore him when he is trying to boss me around. (I also get a lot of good blog material that way.)
And guess what? The world has not come to an end.
My mom nags me like crazy and I don’t tend to nag too much because my idea is that if you don’t listen to what I just told you to do with work or in life I just end up doing it myself. Especially at work I’ll ask someone to do something maybe once (if I ask anyone to do anything for me) and if they don’t I just end up doing it myself. I am afraid that later on I may become a nagger too, but I think my solution is just like the ‘my way is best’ and if it’s going to get done I’m going to have to do it.
Wow..sarahnsh I couldn’t have said it better. I grew up with nagging parents and could not stand it. I also hate to ask anyone for anything. When I have to I really hate to do it more than once. Usually I will just do it myself…because as you say “my way is best”
Nice to know I am not alone :)
My goodness, I think you just wrote a post about me! Well at least how I am at work I’m generally an understanding person, but when someone isn’t doing the job right, I’m like, “what the heck, why did you do that? take your job seriously….etc” But when they’re all on my a$$ about everything, I get mad. I can’t stand to be nagged at, but I often nag too.
:) When you find the solution, let me know:)
There’s a book that anybody who is having an issue with nagging should read: How to Win Friends and Influence People. There’s a great way to get people to do what you think they should do, and that’s never going to be accomplished by nagging. If you’re nagging, then yes, it is your fault for nagging–but you’re not the only one at fault.
The trick is to get them to want to do the things that you want them to do. Tara above had exactly the right idea. If you stand with your hands on your hips and say, “You need to do this,” or “You have to do that,” it’s not going to get anything accomplished. They know they have the option of doing it or not no matter how many times you tell them that, so give them an attractive option vs. an unattractive options. “Honey, if you do the dishes, I’ll make that dish that you like.. otherwise I guess I’ll just have to make peanut butter sandwiches or you can run out and get a burger.” or, “Honey, you can fix the sink or not; if you don’t want to I’ll hire someone.” “Honey, if you’ll take out the trash I won’t say anything about anything during the entirety of Monday Night Football.” Whether you’re offering a reward or simply pointing out the unpleasant alternative to doing a chore, you have to make it seem like something they want to do–then you’ll never have to nag.
I think you need to also look at it this way, for decades, the women in a relationship have been the naggers, it is the stereotype. Way back when, it used to be called nagging, now it’s bitching. Remember back to those old soaps where every wife had that really annoying nasally voice? That there was the epitome of the “nagging wife”.
However, I believe that there is a connection between nagging and constant reminding. I think that constant reminding becomes nagging at the point where the person you are talking to does not listen anymore. This can be from guys and gals, like most things in life. But yeah, correcting things that are of your own opinion should be avoided. At least if you managed to get them to promise something, you have grounds to kick them in the bum.
Very often nagging is more about bad communication than anything else. When you are in a partnership with somebody; children, spouse, friends, business – whatever – there needs to be clear communication. I used to be quite a good nagger when I was young, (brilliantly trained by mother, I might add :-) ) until one day when I suddenly “heard” myself. Revelation! I decided to stop. I looked at how we, as a family, communicated and learned to keep to the point and create a partnership with my children & spouse. We would sit down and discuss things “soberly” where there was no space for attacks or recriminations
In a partnership all parties have their thing to do to make it flow smoothly, and if one is not doing their part it is disrespectful since it “steals” the time and effort from the other(s).
The basic of any communication is clarity and intent. Emotional outbursts have no place, since they usually tend to take the conversation in a different direction.
I salute you for writing on this topic, it is indeed important.
My last posts were on non-violent communication, you can check it out here: http://annadannfelt.com
I am not a nagger. Which is due entirely to the fact that my husband is perfect.
It’s sickening, really.
Also, you will get less done by criticizing how something is done if the other is making an attempt
That is key. If you wanted something done “your” way, you should have done it yourself and not nagged me to do it.
Men and women have different priorities, I think. I have a list in my mind of what needs done. If you, the wife, ask me to do something I fit it into my list. I prioritize the list constantly. Just because you think it is important now…does not mean I do. Trash stinks, I’ll take it out. If you think it is just “full” smash it down some, I’ll take it out when it is full.
[…] I have a question for the Internet. How would you define nagging? And is nagging always unjustified? Nagging is a behavior that I try really hard to avoid. It's also a behavior I find really hard to avoid. My mother, though I love her dearly, is a champion nagger. If you don't do things the way she thinks they should be done, you *will* hear about it. At length. And my dad isn't much better. He has the ability to be annoyed by anything th … Read More […]
I do agree that there are two different way to nag someone. If you are going to be constantly arguing with your husband that he put the spoon in the second drawer when they CLEARLY should be put in the first, you are clearly asking to be smothered in your sleep. BUT as far as bills go, I think that asking NICELY more than once is completely reasonable. If you dont want to ask a second or third time about paying bills (for example) i would just tell him a story of how a friend just got denied for a loan because she found out her credit score was low due to unpaid bills. Chances are the unpaid bills weren’t due to laziness, but just forgetfulness.
In most cases it the naggae’s fault. Nobody wants to make others do something the way they want it to be done. If they are nagging it means that the naggae is doing something wrong and the nagger cares for the person and wants to correct him/her.
Folks, although the discussion seems to be winding down, I’m going to pop in and point out my comment policy, especially Rule #1: Comments that attack other commenters personally, rather than focusing on reasons you disagree with their position, will be deleted.
Good: “I believe the following evidence suggests that you are wrong.”
Bad: “You are obviously irrational and also an idiot.”
Thanks for keeping it civil! :-)
Either we accept male/female stereotyping as legitimate, or we do not. Mr. Erikson previously insisted that characterizing men as doing less house work than women was a supposition, yet now he argues, when we are discussing whether women or men nag more, that a supposition in keeping with the stereotype should be accepted.
Mother Hen notes with interest that when it comes to passive-aggressive behavior, Mr. Erikson then abandons stereotypes in favor of the argument that such behavior is equally distributed between the sexes.
The conclusion that men are prone to passive-aggressive behavior was that of the writer of the website, not that of Mother Hen, although she definitely thinks that the type of behavior that we have been discussing as a response to nagging certainly seems to fit the definition.
So which is it? Do we accept male/female stereotypes as legitimate, reject them as completely unreliable, or agree that traditionally stereotyped character traits can apply to both men and women? (Mother Hen would agree to unruffle her feathers and settle for the latter approach.)
Mother Hen insists that Mr. Erikson has missed HER point, which is that responding to a request to do something with “yes” when the individual means “no,” is not a healthy coping strategy, as he previously claimed, but a demonstrably (see link above) unhealthy psychological tendency.
She would, however, accept the conclusion that both nagging and passive-aggressive behavior are immature and destructive.
Mother Hen’s intention in introducing the websites above was not to insinuate that all or most men have a psychological disorder, but that the behavior of the “naggee” as previously described is not healthy psychologically, and does fit the passive-aggressive behavior pattern.
(Fortunately, Mother Hen and Father Rooster are perfectly well-adjusted chickens who live in a state of relative harmony.)
Argumentatively yours,
Mother Hen
@jedwardswright
Now you are distorting what I say. Most notably, I have never claimed that the division of house-work was a supposition: I was speaking of the assumption that this-or-that was caused by socialisation—a very different issue. (Incidentally, I did have a post tangentially discussing house-work a while ago.)
I have not “abandon[ed] stereotypes in favor of the argument
that such behavior is equally distributed between the sexes”—I have never argued by stereotypes. (In addition, beware of the difference between stereotypes and aggregate behaviours—the first tends to ascribe group characteristics to individuals; the latter preserves individual variation.) Neither have I claimed the the behaviour is equally distributed—I have, in fact, not made any comparison of group behaviours apart from nagging.
I have not attributed, but explicitly qualified, the conclusion of the website to you.
As an FYI: The way you formulate yourself, in particular by the use of “Mother Hen”, makes your texts very hard for me to follow.
Guys, I appreciate the time and thought you’ve both put in here, but I’m going to respectfully ask you to move the conversation elsewhere if you wish to continue it. This is getting more personal than I’m comfortable with on my blog. You’ve both made your points clear and I think you will have to agree to disagree.
I don’t do nagging. Somehow I have managed to train my family not to ignore me. I think it’s a bottom line issue. You need to know where yours is and stick to it.
You can train a labrador to obey in half an hour with a bit of cheese, so why are humans so slow?
I always say, If you can’t change the people….. change the people.
Good luck!
Madam Becky.
Just a clarification here, dear humans.
Mother Hen would be the last chicken alive to disparage people with mental health conditions, since her close (very close — you might say inseperable even) personal friend J. Edwards Wright has been diagnosed with certain medical issues in that general direction.
In fact, Ms. Edwards Wright is a past Senior Moderator of a depression forum with membership now numbering well-over 600,000, and currently writes Mother Hen’s sister blog, http://adarkershadeofblue.wordpress.com
Not would Mother Hen ever dream of using a derogatory term like “crazy” to describe a person with a mental health condition.
Mother Hen
Dear Ms. Chablis,
Mother Hen apologizes for having monopolized your blog replies for so long.
Respectfully,
Mother Hen
Having been married for 47 years any “nagging” goes over my head but the good lady now has learnt to just quietly remind me of what has to be done and I get round to it. Eventually!!!